Long-Term Care: The Hidden Threat to Your Farm (Ep. 345)

"90% of all fraud, neglect, and abuse is done by family members. Not all of it is on purpose. So there was a situation. It was sad. This happened in Indiana a few years ago. It was in the news. A granddaughter moved her grandmother in with her. I think at first the intentions were, 'I'm going to take care of you.' But she realized she couldn't do it. So when they finally found grandmother and she had passed away days before, but she was still collecting the money, she had bedsores all over her because the girl wasn't trained to take care of someone that was bedridden. Didn't know or have the desire. I don't know. I don't want to imply. But nonetheless, there was neglect there. But you're also talking about, look, you've got funds that are coming to you for $5,000, $7,000, $10,000 a month. That could create some fraud situations. So insurance companies with those particular types of features, they have a checks and balance where they will do some certification. They need to make sure that you're still needing care."

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Thank you very much for being here. Today, we're talking about long-term care. And I'm actually quite excited about that because I know about this much, which is why I have Michelle Prather here with me today. And she has a business called Care Income Planning. And Michelle has worked with long-term care for 28 years. So she's the expert on long-term care, not me.

But because we talk about it so much for saving the farm, so we're not losing it to the nursing home — which isn't really the nursing home, it's Medicaid — I wanted to bring her on to have that conversation. Because if you're a client of mine, if you're not a client of mine, fantastic. If you're a client of mine, I will just be referring you to Michelle because I want to make sure that you're getting the right type of long-term care and all the stuff that you need.

So Michelle is from Indiana, and she has flown in to have a conversation with us. So it's going to probably be a long one. Buckle up. So thanks for coming, Michelle. I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. And by the way, this studio is fantastic.

Oh, thank you.

I love it. Love it. Love it. I'm all comfy. I've got my socks on. Sitting back in the chair. This is going to be a good conversation.

It is cozy. One of my agents said, it is fireside conversations.

I love it.

Yeah. It's, you know what? You're in the house. It's truth serum. It's all going to come out.

Yep. Yep.

Can we start just by talking a little bit about your experience? 28 years. You're only 30, so you got started, you know, in your…

In a single digit serum.

So talk a little bit about kind of, or share with us a little bit about your past and what you had going on.

Yeah, thank you. So it's kind of an interesting story. And you never know how your path kind of leads you to where you're supposed to go. So when I started — well, by the way, nobody ever says, I really want to grow up and be in insurance. Like nobody says that.

Maybe it's a family business. That is a true statement. But I did not say, oh, please let me sell insurance.

No, I didn't at all. And definitely not long-term care. And especially being as young as I was when I started, this is an old person thing is what people always thought. And it's not. We'll talk about that. But everybody always thought, oh, this is an old person thing. And here I am, you know, my early 20s.

And I just happened to apply for an ad at a company called Golden Rule Insurance. And Golden Rule Insurance was, well, they were actually based in Illinois, but their main hub was in Indiana, Indianapolis. And they were primarily known for health insurance. So, you know, I go there and they had a sales role and I love people, love talking. So I just thought, well, you know, we'll give it a shot. And I got the job.

And then I learned that they had a life division or a financial services division. And I had done a little bit of work as an assistant to a producer. And I just loved what he was doing. And he did a lot of life insurance and annuities and investing. And so they had an opening. So I applied for that and I got it.

Well, I didn't know that it was long-term care and life insurance. And so the product line that I cut my teeth on was called Asset Care. And it's still available. So that's the nice part. It's been around for a very long time. The late 80s is when these products really started. And so that's what we did at Golden Rule.

And I loved it. And I was really good at it. I knew a lot of the information. I knew how to talk about it. I think, especially in our industry, most people don't know it. So our job is to take something that might seem complex and really make it very easy to understand. I had a knack for that.

And so I worked there for a handful of years and did really well and learned a lot. And then I quit working and got married and had my two daughters. And that's what I was going to do forever. I was just going to be a mom. It was the greatest thing ever. And it is, by the way. But about three or four years in, I thought, you know what? I'm itching. I need to do something more than just this. And felt like I had more to give.

And so at that time, Golden Rule had been bought by a company called United Healthcare. A lot of people have heard of them. And United Healthcare didn't want to be in financial services. So they sold just this division to another OneAmerica company called OneAmerica. And I said another OneAmerica company. Another Indianapolis company called OneAmerica.

Got it. My coffee will kick in here in a minute.

So they just moved from one side of town to downtown. And it was the best thing that could have ever happened. Because OneAmerica was a true financial services company. They understood it. And they're mutual. So they, you know, mutual companies are in it for the long haul. They're not making day-to-day decisions based on stock prices and shareholder wants and desires. They're making it for the longevity and to make sure that they are being good stewards of that money for the policyholder.

So it just worked well because long-term care tends to be a long type of a play. We buy it when we're younger.

Hence the word.

Hence the yes. And so it was just a perfect fit. And it was the best thing that could have ever happened.

So when I came back to work, everybody I knew were just now with a new company. And so then I'm driving downtown and I'm doing inside sales there where I'm supporting agents, writing agents throughout the country. And I got an opportunity to do that myself. So to be face-to-face.

And so my family and I moved to Ohio where I was doing the traveling role, which actually worked out really well with my girls being younger because I could really work my schedule the way that I needed it to work to be there when I needed to be there for them. And so I would travel on certain days and then this day I wouldn't travel because they had something going on at school. I was able to be home certain nights because Ohio was pretty easy to travel within a day. So I did that and did really well there and worked with a lot of different people. Ohio has a lot of farmers. And so I worked with a lot of those folks. There were a lot of agents that were also farmers. And then, you know, in the offseason, they would —

So you worked for what we would call home office. So you worked for the insurance company and OneAmerica for 18 years.

Correct. So I came back to Indianapolis because then I went into leadership role and became VP of sales.

Yeah.

So I was teaching other people how to go out and to educate financial advisors how to set up long-term care planning properly.

I'm going to bring a point up here that what Michelle is doing is very rare. You don't typically go from a home office career working for an insurance company to being an agent out selling the product. Because typically agents will want more secure income. And so they'll go work for home office.

Yes.

So they're still in the insurance world, but they're working for home office because they want the security of that. They don't want the ups and the downs of sales. But Michelle —

No, not Michelle. Maybe I was like, 28 years later, I'm going to just quit that security and I'm going to go out on my own. Well, I'll tell you why.

So I've been throughout this country teaching financial advisors, thousands of financial advisors, did a lot of speaking, you know, just traveling, working with investment folks, working with just financial planners, insurance folks, banks. A lot of banks dabble in writing insurance products. And I started to see a theme. And what I saw was a lot of these folks did not specialize. The majority of them do not specialize in long-term care. And so they were doing their best, but they don't know a lot of the details. So you end up getting a lot of plans put in place and it's not the appropriate plan.

And I always had a desire. You know, I'm trying to teach these guys and gals, you know, how to have this conversation. They're like, well, you just talk to my client because I can't say it the way that you say it. So then I end up working with a lot of clients and I just had a desire to work with them.

And so, you know, after 28 years, my girls are grown. They're out of the house. I just thought I've always wanted to do this. I want to work with clients not only to help them do the plan the right way, but most importantly, be there for their family when they actually need it. Because that's the problem is you can buy anything from anybody and that's easy. But when it comes time to deliver on what was sold, that's where the proof is.

And so a lot of the financial pros are like, I don't know what to do. Call the insurance company and we'll just pass their client over there. I want to be there to handhold the kids through this process because — we'll get into it — it can be pretty chaotic. It can be a pretty frustrating situation. And I want to alleviate as much of that as possible.

Yeah. And that truly is what sets any agent apart or any insurance agent of any kind. And I think in today's world, and I've been saying this for probably the last couple of months, we can go to AI and we can be like, oh, AI is going to solve all the world problems. No, what AI is going to do is drive people back more to personal contact. And I firmly believe that, that those of us that have that personal touch are going to be winning this game because people don't — I don't want AI to solve my problem. I want to speak to a human.

I got back from my trip to Birmingham and I was talking to Delta online and it was a chat bot right away. And then I said, I want to talk to a representative. And this representative was answering me like a chat bot. And I said, I don't want to talk to a chat bot. You clearly are not human. And then she started answering me like a human. And I was like, what I'm asking for is not hard to understand. Quit sending me to the wrong spot because I've already been there.

Right.

You know? And so I think that that is what's going to set you apart from everyone else is because you do have — and I see it on the life insurance side, every agent or every financial advisor. I shouldn't say every. Okay. The majority of the financial advisors are like, oh, I can sell you some life insurance. It's not right. It doesn't have a PUA rider on it. You just told me last night you had a life insurance policy that didn't have a PUA rider on it.

That's true.

So I didn't have any flexibility.

Right. She didn't come to me, y'all.

It's true. So I didn't know you went about it.

So it's important. And I talk about that all the time. Like I could sell long-term care. I sell long-term care for OneAmerica. I have the ability to do that. I have done two policies, I think, in the 16 years that I have sold life insurance. It is a life insurance product, which we will get into. But I choose not to do that because I don't want to be responsible for the claims and doing it wrong at the end of the day. And so I think where you're buying your long-term care, it's almost more important than the kind of long-term care you have. Because the person that you bought it from should be there to actually file the claim and hold your hand through it.

So anyway, you're right.

Or another soapbox. If you are doing cataract surgery and your client says, I've got this heart flutter, you should not do their heart surgery. You know, I want someone that knows my heart. I want someone that knows what's going to happen and can walk. And it doesn't solve every problem because things pop up. Things are different. But that person is going to know how to adapt to whatever it is, the situation, and ease a lot of that pain and frustration that people go through.

And I think a lot of the problem is people don't know how to work together. Like yesterday, I had a client that said, Mary Jo, I think I want my beneficiary — we need the beneficiary to be the trust for estate planning so we don't have to pay taxes. And I said, are you sure it's the beneficiary and not the owner of the policy? And they don't know what their attorney said. So they're trying to decipher what their attorney said.

And I just finally said, this is recorded. You're welcome to share this with your attorney because you'll get a recording of the meeting. But I am also more than happy to visit with your attorney. And I said, because I'm sure there's something I can learn on that side of it. But a lot of your financial professionals do not want to visit with the accountant, the attorney, because they want to be the know-it-alls. And they don't want to give up commission on anything. So heaven forbid I give up commission because I can't sell this product. So I'm just going to pretend to be the expert.

But at the end of the day, like you call it wrong care.

Wrong term care.

Yeah. Yeah. You have the wrong care. That's not actually going to pay up.

I have a story actually about wrong term care and why having the right person taking care of your long-term care planning is extremely important. So I was at a conference and a female advisor came up to me. Now, the majority of her business was investments, and which she was really good at. But of course, her client comes to her and asks her about, you know, hey, we're thinking that maybe we should look into long-term care planning. And she was like, well, I can offer that to you.

And there was no bad bone in this woman's body, a sweetheart lady. So she wasn't doing anything nefarious or anything with bad intentions. I think she did the best that she could.

But she tells me the story. She goes, she said, Michelle, the only thing that I offer now is lifetime coverage. And I was like, it was just kind of an odd thing to say. And she said, I'll tell you a story. She said, I had these two clients, extremely healthy husband and wife. And they had asked me about long-term care. And she said, I knew that the average — and we'll talk about averages because that's all over the place and it's really misleading — so she said, I knew that the average was just a couple of years in a nursing home. So I recommended to them that he buy three years for himself, three years of coverage, and she get a three-year coverage policy as well. And everything's fine. They loved it. It was great. It was affordable. It was exactly what they needed at the time.

So a few years later, this man gets diagnosed with Parkinson's. And they were extremely healthy people, avid tennis players, the whole thing. I think he took a heart pill. And here's why I'll tell you in a minute why I believe that.

So the wife starts doing research on Parkinson's and knows that this is a lengthy illness. My grandfather had Parkinson's the entire time I knew him. And it's a long, long battle. I mean, we know Michael J. Fox from us being kids watching him.

So anyway, so here's the first mistake. The wife knew that she only had three years of insurance for him for long-term care. So she wanted to save it for the bad part, for the bad time. So she took care of him at the beginning. And so she was doing it for so long that it was breaking her down. And so the kids finally stepped in and said, Mom, no more. You have to turn on that insurance policy. You can't pick him up when he falls. You're going to hurt yourself.

And that's a big deal that oftentimes the caregiver, their health will decline faster because they're breaking themselves, taking care of the ailing person.

And so she listens to them and she finally turns on the policy and gets professional care, professional help to come into the home. Lo and behold, they burned through the three years. Now they're back on using their retirement money to pay for him. So they're just hemorrhaging dollars. They're just bleeding money.

And she goes to his doctor. This is the heartbreaking part. This is why it stuck with me so long. She goes to his doctor and she says, he is burning through everything that I have. And I'm going to live a long time. I need you to take him off his heart pill so he'll hurry up and die.

No spouse should ever feel like that's the only decision that they have. But she's thinking, oh, my gosh, I can't pay for him. And in order to get qualified for Medicaid, you have to be impoverished. That's the intention of that program, which means they would have to spend down to a level that she didn't want to go.

And so I only say that that's what I mean by wrong term care. It was wrong for their situation. The advisor did the best that they could. And what they knew, they just don't study this. They don't research it. They don't live, eat and breathe this every day. And that's an unfortunate outcome. And it was because they didn't have the proper plan in place.

Well, let's talk about the average then. I mean, I have heard it. People, this is why you trust the professional, because I'm over here talking about averages. The average is supposed to be like 24 months or something. Yeah. So what's the real point about averages?

Yeah. The tough part about averages. And the sad part is AARP and all these seniors, all this aging thing, they'll put out the averages. So the average for men right now is 2.2 years. For ladies, it's 3.7 years. And for Alzheimer's, it's an average of eight years.

So let me first blow up this average. What are averages? Okay. So I'm going to use this illustration. I'm going to look into the camera. So here's how I define averages to people. If I'm standing in a bucket of ice water and my hair is on fire, on average, I'm comfortable.

That sounds stupid. So whenever we talk about averages, we're not talking about worst case scenario hair on fire, which is terrible for a girl. I don't want my hair to be. We're talking about comfortable.

Okay. So that's the first problem with this. What we're talking about is planning for comfortable, planning for an average. You can't plan for average. I can't plan for an average retirement. What if I live beyond an average retirement and I run out of money? That's not good. So that's number one is when people hear averages, they go, well, it's only a couple years in a nursing home. So that's all I need. Well, what if you need more?

So that's the other thing. The second thing is these are averages for nursing home. We really don't know how long someone's getting cared for at home prior to going into a nursing home by friends and family.

Right.

Think about it. That's how care usually starts. Is a wife or a husband is taking care. I'll tell you another story about a husband taking care of a wife. What he said was funny. The situation wasn't funny. So we're talking about nursing home averages, not the full care.

And then lastly, we're talking about longevity. That's really what is scaring people. With averages of Alzheimer's being eight years, we're seeing people need care 10, 15, 20 years now with dementia because of the trend. And we talked about this last night.

Yeah. What did you say? I just heard something that women — somebody was, oh, The Diary of a CEO. He was interviewing some lady talking about how to avoid dementia. But she was talking about that women have higher rates of dementia than men. And you knew that statistic last night.

Well, Alzheimer's specifically. So it's one in 10 men will develop Alzheimer's. It's one in five women that will. And the average care is eight years. And care for Alzheimer's is about $15,000 a month. $10,000 to $15,000 a month.

Right. Depending on where you live. But like here in North Dakota, we're looking at, I think it's like $12,000 or $13,000 a month for eight years. I mean, granted, as it gets worse, it gets more expensive.

Sure. But —

Well, and okay, let's talk about cost. That's a lot of money.

It is a lot of money. That's a hundred — even at $10,000, just easy math. $10,000 a month, that's $120,000 a year. And now you've got eight, you got nine years of that.

Yeah. Gosh, there's a lot there.

Wow. We're going to talk for three hours.

I know. So let's — life got delayed. Let's play this out. So you've got people that might have a plan to live — I'm just going to make up numbers here — that they're going to live on $200,000 a year in retirement. So they're retired now. We've got a fixed budget. We're going to live on 200. This happens. And now they get new bills come in. And these bills are salty.

Right.

So now they need another hundred thousand dollars a year on top of the 200 that they're already living on, because when your husband needs care, your life doesn't change. And you still have obligations. You still have children you want to see. You still have travel. You have utilities. You have insurance that you have to pay for. So that $200,000 is already earmarked. You need an additional hundred on top of that. So —

But it'll be less, Michelle. We'll see.

That's a whole other subject.

Yeah. We'll see.

So now you need $300,000. Where do you get the income to fill that gap? See, a lot of people think, oh, long-term care. I have plenty of assets. It's not an asset problem. It's an income problem. It's a cash flow problem. How much income are your assets able to generate at the exact moment you have to turn it on? That's the problem.

They can't call their investment guy and go, hey, get me another hundred. And the investment guy goes, okay, boom. There you go. Great.

So they got to go find that. And so now you're timing market. You're timing real estate market. You got to sell off the farm or pieces of the farm. I got a story about that. That one was really heartbreaking to the farmer that lived behind me.

So now we've got an income problem. Where do we get this cash flow? And here's the other thing that most people —

We have a cash flow problem.

We have a cash flow problem. But here's the ripple effect that people don't think about, including investment guys and gals. So now I'm living on $300,000. Guess what? The government sees that I am now pulling $300,000 in income. So what are they going to do? They're going to tax me accordingly. They're going to tax me.

Which now is going to affect your Social Security and Medicare.

Yes. So now they see I'm in a higher tax bracket. So now I'm paying higher federal taxes. Now I am paying higher state and local taxes, but also Medicare. Because they see my income, not just for the person that's ill, but also for the healthy spouse, because it's a combined income.

So this is if we're pulling it from a retirement account.

Correct.

So the reason for the long-term care is because that's not qualifying as income.

That's correct. Because it's long-term care insurance. I call it invisible income. It's invisible, meaning the government doesn't see it as taxable. Therefore, it doesn't wreck your plan.

And it's all long-term care policies. It's not just the ones that I like from OneAmerica.

Well, I want to be clear about that because there are some companies out there that will say, you know, this is long-term care and it might be chronic illness, which can also be tax-free. But there are some limitations there and some people can get themselves into a pickle.

But if I have purchased a long-term care policy, that is always going to be a non-income event.

The ones that I offer, yes. It's a non-income event. So again, having the right type is going to be important.

Yes.

Because what we want is we want income to pay these new bills that's going to fill that gap so that my plan remains exactly as it was planned. So I'm not pulling out of life insurance policies when that wasn't the intention. I'm not selling off pieces of real estate at an inopportune time.

Right. And even if you sell that off, the government sees that too. Which I think is important for your business name and Care Income Planning because of the fact that we need that income to pay for it to help avoid the taxes.

I've heard you talk about this often, but I have never heard anybody ever sell long-term care and talk about the tax advantages of long-term care. Or the consequences of pulling money out of an investment for long-term care.

Right.

I just had a client a couple weeks ago text me and talk about his 401(k) and how it's BS was his words. So I put this online because he wanted to take a loan and pay off his house, but then it throws off his Medicare and his Medicare was going to go up by, I think he said, $1,000 a month maybe. It was expensive. I did a whole podcast on it.

Anywho, the people on the interwebs are losing their ever-loving mind and talking about how he is the dumbest investor. And yet he saved 15% of his money and did everything he was supposed to do, right? He should have known this. Well, okay, how many people are actually paying attention? They're not. I mean, I never thought about it till just now. You're going to be pulling money out of that investment, throw you in a higher tax bracket, which means you actually need to take more money out of the investment to pay the taxes. So it's not just money to be paying long-term care.

Here's what it'll cost you. For every dollar you have to pull out, because the nursing home wants their 10 grand — I'm just using that. They want their 10 grand. So for every dollar you pull out to pay nursing home, you have to pull out $1.35 to $1.60.

That's not — I do girl math. That's not even good girl math. That doesn't make sense to me. Why would I — I like to buy it on clearance. Not because I don't have money. I want to buy more, right? I want my dollar to stretch further. So I don't pay retail price for anything if I can help it.

We were talking about buying real estate. You're going to get a deal. You're not going to — just because they ask for, you know, say $600,000, you're not going to say, okay. Yeah. I'll just give you $600,000. How about $500,000? Yeah. A deal? I'll pay cash, right? And they're like, okay.

That's how wealthy people think. Whether you're wealthy or you're not, we all want to know the secrets of the rich and famous, right? And that's what they do is they leverage their money, which means they take their pennies and they turn them into dollars.

But you're pulling that $1.30 to $1.60. You're pulling that extra 30 to 60 cents because you have to pay taxes.

You have to pay taxes. But correct me if I'm wrong. It's not the nursing home's fault.

Yeah.

I have a really hard time, and maybe you can change my perspective on this. I have a really hard time beating up nursing homes because they have to hire people. They have RNs. They have activity directors. They've got maintenance guys. They've got a building to take care of. They've got vans they've got to put gas in. They've got to get people to the doctors. They've got to pay for the lights. They've got to pay for food. It's ridiculous the amount of overhead they have.

But my understanding is the nursing home's not coming after you because they are bored. It's because Medicaid is requiring the nursing home to pay them. So it's more of a Medicaid issue than it is — it's more of a government issue of Medicaid wanting to get paid. Because the Medicaid's not going to just be giving the nursing home all this money. So that would be fraud.

You're going to get me started on the government now.

All right. So, I mean, I want people to understand that they think, oh, $10,000 a month for grandpa to be in the nursing home or mom and dad to be in the nursing home is crazy. Is it? Because I've had — I have talked to people that do in-home care. Like I had a meeting with a lady that did in-home care for a dementia client. And she didn't work in a nursing home. The son hired her privately. There were three of them that they had to rotate through. He was paying $10,000 a month for private care.

I believe it.

And they were in her home. Like this lady came to her home. She didn't go to this lady's home. Because it didn't — the lady didn't care where she was. And she spent the majority of her time with this particular lady. But he was paying $10,000 a month because that's how much she needed as an hourly rate.

Well, so let's talk about home health care. The national average for health care — I haven't gotten 2025 numbers yet because it's still the beginning of '26. So I've got '24 numbers. So 2024, the national average for home health care based on 40 hours a week was $70,000 a year.

And in a nursing home, were there 24 hours a day?

So I'll just tell you about, because I work with home health care agencies in Indiana. So I'm having a conversation with one of them. And the problem is when they need round-the-clock care at home, they want to stay home. So like wealthy people go, I've got plenty of money. Or they've been told by their investment pro, you've got plenty of money. You don't need insurance.

If you do round-the-clock care at home, just in Indiana, it's $6,000 a week. That's round-the-clock care because that's three eight-hour shifts, right? So that's $300,000 a year. So that's when people start moving into nursing homes just to save on dollars. Not that they do better in a nursing home.

And by the way, nursing homes — there's a special place in heaven for people that take care of elderly people and other people's children. That's my belief. And I'm not that special. So I help them. But I'm not that bedside manner kind of caregiving people. But they do a great thing in taking care of people. But it's expensive. It's really expensive. And a lot of people don't think about that.

I didn't know home health care was that expensive.

Because around-the-clock care.

Because you don't think around-the-clock care.

Right. Or home health care.

Well, the problem is the media. You think they're just going to come in.

Right. Because media says, well, the average is $75,000 a year. No, that's for 40 hours a week. So they're not really giving people the full picture. Or they'll say average, you know, of two or three years. Well, that's not including how long they were receiving care at home from a family member. And we can talk about what happens to family members and how that's changed.

I think there's a huge misunderstanding. The only people that understand how hard it is for the family members are the ones that have done it.

Well, and then they forget that too. Meaning how long ago it was. And so we have memory loss. Because, you know, if it's not been recent, we kind of go, oh, it was great.

I have a good friend of mine that helped take care of her father-in-law that had Alzheimer's. He was my childhood pastor. And she's got some funny stories because he lived in their home. So it was her husband's father. So there were some funny moments. And she said it was very rewarding. But if I dive into the details on that day-to-day, it was hard. It was hard.

Because he had Alzheimer's and he was doing things like if you didn't watch him, you have no idea what he was going to do. Like she tells a story. Again, he was a pastor. Like she would run to the grocery store and come back. Now, never leaving him alone. But if someone wasn't watching, he'd be standing in the door just stripped down completely naked. He didn't have sense because that Alzheimer's had taken that from him. He one time found a bottle of lotion and smeared it all over the couch. He loved to put the remotes in places. She'd find it in a plant.

But she could turn on music and he'd be just singing the whole song. There was something about music. Loved to kind of sit by the fireplace in a rocking chair and just sing music. So she would play music all the time. So there were moments that she really enjoyed with him because before he got sick, they had kind of this really contentious type. But when he was sick, he was softened. He was a softer guy. And so she got to know him a little bit differently. He would remember the past. And he would talk about growing up in childhood and, you know, all those stories. So, like, she enjoyed that time. But it was hard.

And then, you know, family members, some of them could be there. Some of them couldn't be there. To help clean up in the shower.

Well, then arguing with family members.

Yeah. Like, I think that you have one child that's close and that's the child that's always taking care. Or the daughter-in-law. It's usually the female, correct?

Well, it used to be.

Oh.

We're seeing that change.

Oh.

So, historically, you would always see in generations they would, you know, move mom and dad in their home. Or mom or dad in the home. And it would be the daughter. It would be the oldest daughter or the daughter-in-law if there wasn't daughters that was taking care of parents. And I know a lot of women that took care of their parents and their husband's parents. And so, that's how it was.

Now, we're seeing it change because of family dynamics. Kids don't stay in town anymore. They move away. Maybe for job opportunities or they went off to college and they met their sweetheart and they stayed there. So, now it's whoever's closest is taking on a lot of that responsibility. So, even if it's a son that lives, you know, a mile or two away, he's taking on a lot of that responsibility. Maybe not necessarily the day-to-day washing and things like that, but definitely the coordination, doctor's appointments, running them to, you know, adult daycare or finding an assisted living facility, handling the bills. Like, it's a lot. It's a lot on families. So, we've seen that kind of switch.

You also are seeing a lot of tension and resentment. I don't think that's really changed. But you have brothers. I have brothers. I always tease, and if they watch this, I'm teasing, but I would say, I wouldn't trust you with my cat. Like, I can't imagine you taking care of our parents. And I don't think that they would. There's a saying in my industry that daughters do the caregiving, sons send checks. Because a lot of that responsibility, we're just natural caretakers, I think, for, generally speaking, for women.

But we're seeing that kind of dynamic because women are now in the workforce versus previous generations. So, they're not only taking on, I have my own job. You have your job. I have my job. But I also have children that I like to be around. I'd like to be around them. I have a marriage that I still need to nurture and make sure that we're good there. Well, then I got to take care of my parents. So, what is going to happen? I'm usually last on that list.

So, what could happen is I'm going to call my brother and go, hey, you need to get your hiney down here and help out. I can't because my daughter's got this, you know, sporting event. No, you need to get here. So, now tension. Because I gave up my sporting event.

Yes.

Yeah. Tension and resentment start popping up because they're kind of at odds. Or they're disagreeing in how mom or dad is being cared for. Or they don't see. This is what I see a lot is we don't agree that mom's getting dementia. We don't agree that dad needs to go to a home because we're not there.

You don't see it every day.

We don't see it.

Where, like, my brother lives on the same farm. Like, he's going to end up being the one that has to do all that stuff. And I'm obviously very aware of it. But my other brother is in Utah.

Yeah.

Like, he's nowhere near. It's not like you can just call him and have him take mom and dad to the doctor.

Right.

You know? But even at that, like, I listen to my folks now. And I'm like, what do you mean you didn't ask a doctor that? Like, I have so many questions.

Right.

And I have more questions even than my brothers.

Sure.

And so I just am like, well, I'll just do it because I need to know all this stuff. Why aren't they being asked? Why are we trusting so much? Well, is that a girl guy thing? Because, like, I asked my husband, so what did he say? I don't know. I didn't ask him. I'm like, why don't you ask? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about anything.

I think it's just a personality thing. Like, I just ask a lot of questions. But, like, I try to be very aware that if my brother says, like, oh, I see this or this or this, this or that's happening, I just try to pay attention to it. I don't say yes or no because he's the one there all the time. I'm not there.

Yeah. Well, and sometimes — so here's another fun fact. I don't know if it's a fun fact. So claims, because I came from the corporate side, I've been clean for almost six months.

I tease you.

I've been clean for almost six months. So, but being on the corporate side, we see claims — or we saw claims spike at the holidays. And here's why. Because it's been a long time since the last time you saw your parents face to face. And so you're like, wow, they have really digressed. Something's going on there. And so anywhere between November and February, claims spike because now the kids are like, oh, my gosh, I haven't seen my mom since the last holiday. And now I've seen she has gone downhill a lot.

And she left the stove on every day we were there.

Right. Or she's saying weird things. Or she forgot things.

Yeah.

Yes. And so a lot of people don't realize that. But that's when insurance companies see because kids have finally gone home and they're seeing what's happened to their mom and dad.

I think in long-term care is important. And let's talk about this. The misconception with long-term care is you have to go to the nursing home to get care.

Right. That's not the case nowadays.

No, no, it's not. And so, well, and when you say the words long-term care, everybody immediately goes nursing home. I'm not going. I'm not doing it because they have memories maybe of visiting someone and it wasn't a pleasant experience. Or they just say —

I say I'm not going.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, but you've got a plan in place to make sure that you have options.

But for the same reason. I was there twice a day every day because my grandma couldn't drive. So I had to drive her to see my grandpa.

Yeah.

You know, but she was in the nursing home and she said she didn't want to go. So as soon as she went to the nursing home, I think she was gone in a month. I want to say it was shorter than that, that she died faster than that. Yeah. But she just checked out.

So my grandpa, I told you earlier, he had Parkinson's. And so my grandmother tried to take care of him. She was under five feet tall. I mean, 100 pounds soaking wet. And my grandpa was six foot, whatever. I mean, he had these huge hands. I just remember like, gosh, he's got some huge hands. He's just a bigger guy, not heavy, just solid.

And so when he would fall, she would try to pick him up. And then she's calling my dad and my uncles going, hey, I can't call them. They're going to take him away from me. And so she didn't want to call an ambulance because she thought that they would see that like she was abusing him or something because when he would fall and especially the thin skin, like he was pretty bruised up. So she was afraid that they were going to think that this little, little four foot, whatever lady was beating, you know, on her husband.

So anyway, the doctor finally stepped in and the doctor said, listen, if you can't afford to hire someone to come in and take care of him, he's got to go. He's going to hurt you. You're going to be hurt. And so they finally did Medicaid planning.

I'm thankful — we'll talk about Medicaid planning — I'm thankful that we live in a country that takes care of people that cannot afford to take care of themselves. But we know a lot of people end up on that program that shouldn't be. And it was because nobody told them that there was easy planning things that you could have put in place to avoid becoming a welfare recipient.

So nonetheless, so they did the planning and he ended up in a nursing home for almost five years. The worst part was because he had Parkinson's, he still had his mind until the end. He knew where he was. That was the hardest part. All he would say is, I want a cup of coffee and I want to go home.

Because Parkinson's — a lot of us think of it as shaking. But Parkinson's, his bladder stopped working. So he had to have a permanent catheter. And then he was aspirating because his throat just stopped working the way that it needed to. So he was aspirating anything that he was eating or drinking into his lungs and it was getting sick. He kept on getting pneumonia. So they had to put a permanent feeding tube in. And he lasted quite some time. Usually feeding tubes, it's difficult. It's short-lived because they don't survive too long. He did. He was okay.

Which is why he wanted coffee. And then my grandma kept on sneaking him shakes. And then he would aspirate, go back in the hospital and the nursing home said, you can't do that anymore. We're not going to let you come back in here if you keep on sneaking shakes to him. So she loved him.

Long-term care is not just nursing home.

Right.

Like it used to be just nursing home.

Sure.

But now you can have care at home.

Yeah. So there's a lot of forms of care. So you can get cared for at home. You could be in a nursing home. These policies pay for assisted living facilities. You can, you know, as my buddy down in Texas would say, you could swing a dead cat and hit one.

I don't know what that means. But nonetheless.

That there's a lot of —

There's a lot of them. We have them going up all over here.

Everywhere. Well, and that's because of the baby boomers. We'll talk about what's about to happen there.

So adult daycare. So there's a lot of adult daycare because working families, they will drop them off where they're there all day in a safe, controlled place. And they're getting that social interaction, which is extremely important to keep it from progressing and more decline in their cognitive. So it'll even pay for adult daycare.

Yeah. They just have to meet one of the five requirements.

Two of six activities of daily living.

Two of six.

Okay. Two of six. Those are — because I said it. Let me mention it. So what has to happen is your doctor has to say, Mary Jo is failing two of six activities of daily living, which is bathing, eating, dressing, toileting, transferring, incontinence. Meaning they would say, Mary Jo can no longer get herself cleaned up for the day and she can't get out of bed. That would trigger these policy benefits.

Or you're diagnosed with a severe cognitive impairment. So you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. You've been — not just the diagnosis, because in the early days, you're still okay. You can still take care of yourself. It's once it progresses. So there's three phases. There's mild, moderate, and severe. Once you get to sometimes moderate and into severe, you might be a hazard to yourself. You might, you know, be — you could hurt somebody else. You're a wanderer. Those types of things would trigger benefits out of these policies.

Will a long-term care policy pay for a family member to take care of you?

Some of them do. And there's a reason for that, why you've seen more and more go in that direction. And it's because of high demand. A lot of it's baby boomers and because of COVID. Well, if I'm taking care of my parents, I should get paid because I had to quit my job.

Yeah. And if that's where we're going and that's this trend or a trend. Yeah. Because you see it now, right? I'm going to put a tiny house in the back.

Sure.

So mom and dad or they're going to move in with me or whatever. Somebody has to quit their job.

Yeah.

And so if I have to quit my job to take care of them, then can I collect on that?

Yes. In some policies. Again, that's why you want to work with someone that this is all they do all day researching. And if that's going to be the case, bring that up to the agent you're working with so that they can make sure that policy pays for that.

Right.

So here's what I will tell you about paying your children. Most of the time, people don't want to disrupt their child's life, especially if they have children at home or they're a working person. You know, I have two daughters and they're both sweet girls. But one of them said, Mama, I would never move you in a nursing home. And I said, bless your heart. You have no idea what you're saying. You don't know how hard this is. And if you have a choice, which is what I want to give you, then I don't want that to be your only choice.

I want to give you — make sure that you have the funds to hire the pros to come in and do this because it's hard. Or maybe you do it sometime. Maybe you take on the night shift, but you can hire a pro, take care of me on the daytime. I want to give options. I do not want my children to give up their life to take care of me. It would crush my dad to know that I had to give up my dreams and my purpose on earth to not do what I do now to take care of him. It would crush him to know that that happened.

So most of the time, if people do proper planning, they're doing it so that they don't have to disrupt their kid's life. But to answer your question, yes. Here's the other thing. What I have found, if kids figure out — and we've got sweetheart kids that are like, I love my parents. I'm not moving them in a nursing home. And then they do it for a short period of time and they realize how hard it is. And they have this policy or they have these funds that will take care of it. They usually will transition to professional care pretty quickly.

If I'm a child that's going to take care of a parent, do I have to meet some sort of requirements for long-term care to pay me?

Some policies require that, some don't.

Okay.

So some of them just have cash benefits, meaning when you trigger the benefits. So the two of six activities of daily living or severe cognitive impairment. So let's say a policy might say we have $5,000 a month in care income. They just will send it to you.

Now, with those types of policies, they need to make sure that you actually need care because now we're opening up a whole new world of potential fraud. So think of it that way. Not all kids are great.

Right.

Some of you got good kids and some you don't want them just getting a check for $5,000 every month. There was a situation —

And then you have elder abuse.

That's it. That is going to mix into that.

Like, I've seen a lot of that. I've heard about that with clients.

90% of all fraud, neglect, and abuse is done by family members. Now, not all of it is on purpose. So there was a situation. It was sad. This happened in Indiana a few years ago. It was in the news. A granddaughter moved her grandmother in with her. I think at first the intentions were, I'm going to take care of you. But she realized she couldn't do it.

So when they finally found grandmother and she had passed away days before, but she was still collecting the money, she had bed sores all over her because the girl wasn't trained to take care of someone that was bedridden, didn't know or have the desire. I don't know. I don't want to imply. But nonetheless, there was neglect there.

But you're also talking about, look, you've got funds that are coming to you for $5,000, $6,000, $10,000 a month. That could create some fraud situations. So insurance companies with those particular types of features and options, they have a checks and balance where they will do some certification. They need to make sure that you're still needing care.

Because here's what could happen. Let's say you had a stroke and you're paying your daughter to take care of you. But you pretty much rehabilitate because that happens with strokes. Maybe at first you're not able to care for yourself, but you get better and then you're able to take care of yourself. Well, if the insurance company doesn't have a checks and balance, they're still going to be shooting that check to you. And now you don't even need the care.

Well, that's not good.

That's not good. Now you're just cashing checks.

So the insurance company is going to run out of money. Like if you have a long-term care policy that only pays for 33 months, you're out of money at 33 months. But you're talking about free money coming in. So some people might go, oh, I can just cash those checks.

Here's something else. They don't understand what they have at the end of the day.

This is true. Not all long-term care is created equal. So let's talk about that. Like the average stay is obviously not 22 — what did you say? 24 and a half months.

Yeah, 2.2 years for men.

2.2 years.

3.7 for ladies.

So the average stay is actually longer than that.

Or the care. The need.

The care is longer than that. So what is the difference between plans? If I'm looking at a long-term care plan, what are the big things that I need to watch for?

Yeah. So the length would be important. Well, I mean, affordability, right? We need to make sure that whatever plan you're doing, it is affordable. And we can talk about funding too.

I will say that I'm a little bit biased when I'm dealing with a couple and when I'm dealing with females. And here's why. So we know that 70% of the population will require care at some point in the future. We just don't know how long. We don't know in what form.

70%.

Right? So the chances, if we're married, the chances that one of us needs care is 91%. That just one of us. This is almost a sure thing. This is happening.

With my grandparents, both of them were in a nursing home. So after my grandfather with Parkinson's passed, my grandmother had a stroke after he died and she did.

All four of mine were.

Right. So there's a high probability that this is going to happen.

So when I'm dealing with a couple or when I'm dealing with females, I do lean more toward lifetime coverage because I want to make sure that however long they need it, they are covered. Because here's what you don't want to have happen. If I'm on a policy with my husband and it's a shared bucket of money — and so some people will go, oh, you can do a six-year bucket or you can do an eight-year bucket. It'll pay out eight years. Well, it's shared. Well, what if my husband has Alzheimer's and he uses all of it? He's left me with nothing. If you have lifetime coverage, that means you have lifetime care income regardless of how long either one of you need it.

So if he needs it for — so we can have a policy that's a shared bucket of money or we can have a policy that each one of us have a bucket to use.

You could do individual. You could do joint policies. You could do lifetime coverage. You could do just, you know, a small period. And by the way, some people —

But we don't want shared.

Well, you don't want a shared bucket with a limited bucket.

Yeah.

And that's usually what people are doing if they're going to an investment pro or their financial advisor and they just go, hey, I'm looking into long-term care. And I want the cheapest thing I can buy.

Right.

And what they don't realize — I just had a situation the other day. This particular couple with the policy that they wanted, they were looking at an eight-year bucket and the eight-year bucket was going to cost them $7,000 a year in premium. And that covered both of them. So $3,500 a piece. That was really inexpensive. But if they did lifetime, it was $7,100.

Why wouldn't you do that? It was cheaper?

No, it was $100 more a year.

$7,000 for the limit.

Oh, okay. I thought you said $8,000. I was like, what?

No. And I may have. So I apologize if I did. $7,000 a year for a limited bucket versus $7,100 for lifetime. And so every client that I talk to, they're like, who would do that? And I'm going, well, most people don't. The people that do that is when they're working with a financial pro that doesn't know long-term care.

Exactly. Because you don't know what the other options are.

Well, because they're going averages.

Well, yeah. And I'm not a huge long-term care proponent. Like, that's why I don't write it.

Yeah.

Is because I think there's only one reason to have long-term care, and it is for lifetime coverage. If you don't want lifetime coverage, then figure out how you're going to plan to pay for it outside of having a long-term care policy. Well, I tell you, I'll just sell you a whole life policy and you can use your cash value to pay for it. Because at 22 months or whatever, the math might math. Right? But I have a long-term care policy because it's a lifetime policy.

Right.

And I just think if you're going to buy a policy, buy lifetime.

Right. Well, I always tell people, tell me how long you're going to live and I'll tell you how much you need.

Yeah. We don't know.

I mean, that's the problem.

Right.

And this is going to sound kind of harsh. If people just died, that would be easier. Meaning —

Right. It's fine.

I know it sounds terrible, but we know exactly what's going to happen. I'll deliver your death claim. Right. We know exactly what's going to happen. And we can accommodate that. We can figure that out. But it's the slow bleed and this hemorrhaging of dollars.

So long-term care is really the protection of the entire plan. Because it's the one thing that could blow up your banking concepts. It's the one thing that can blow up a family farm. Like, it's the one thing that will just slowly bleed out.

Thanks for listening to the Farming Without the Bank podcast. We hope today's episode has inspired you to take control of your finances in new ways. Don't forget to check out our website, farmingwithoutthebank.com, and engage with us on our Facebook page, Farming Without the Bank. Join us next week as we smash more financial myths and empower you to accomplish your financial goals. We'll see you next week.